Bart Busschots is the host of Let’s Talk Apple and Let’s Talk Photography. He is also a bi-weekly contributor to the ‘Chit-Chat Across the Pond’ segment on the NosillaCast. In this episode we discuss how the Apple Vision Pro is different from other headsets, the concept of the “infinity screen”, paradigm leaps, how he believes he will use the Apple Vision Pro, and much more.
This episode of Vision Pros is sponsored by Agenda, the award winning app that seamlessly integrates calendar events into your note taking. Learn more at www.agenda.com. Agenda 18 is now available as a free download for macOS, iPadOS, and iOS.
Links and Show Notes
Chapter Markers:
- 00:00:00: Opening
- 00:01:16: Agenda
- 00:01:41: Early Access
- 00:02:01: Bart Busschots
- 00:04:59: Other headsets?
- 00:06:32: Something different
- 00:09:13: An Infinity Screen
- 00:11:14: Privacy Baked In
- 00:12:10: Paradigm Leaps
- 00:14:59: Many Form Factors
- 00:20:35: Best Version 1 Ever?
- 00:23:44: Windows at a distance
- 00:25:44: Tapping windows?
- 00:26:30: Adornments
- 00:33:05: Sponsor – Agenda
- 00:34:57: Your Office Setup
- 00:42:52: Does visionOS replace anything?
- 00:53:14: Gestures
- 00:59:32: Input
- 01:01:59: Eye Health
- 01:02:40: 3D Elements
- 01:07:47: How do you think you’ll use Vision Pro?
- 01:11:09: IO
- 01:13:59: Closing Thoughts
- 01:15:16: Where can people find your work?
- 01:15:57: Closing
Transcription of the Interview
Bart Busschots
(2m 2s) Tim Chaten:
Welcome to Podcast Bart.
(2m 3s)
I’m very excited to dive into all this Vision OS stuff with you today.
(2m 8s) Bart Busschots:
I am absolutely delighted to be here and best of luck with the new project.
(2m 12s) Tim Chaten:
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I heard you chat with Allison about VisionOS. I want to chat even more about this stuff with you on NozillaCast, or one of the offshoots to chat.
(2m 26s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, I think it was chit chat across the pond because I wanted to go along on the conversation. So I was like, I want to hold episode with you, Allison.
(2m 32s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. So for those who don’t know who you are, can you share a bit on your background,
(2m 38s)
who you are, and kind of what your current computer setup are you? Are you a Mac user,
(2m 43s)
an iPad power user, or something else?
(2m 46s) Bart Busschots:
I OK, so computers is easy.
(2m 49s)
I am an Apple user all the way through.
(2m 51s)
I have an Apple watch.
(2m 52s)
I have an iPhone.
(2m 53s)
I have an iPad pro and I have a Mac studio with a Mac studio display.
(2m 57s) Tim Chaten:
All the way through, yeah.
(2m 57s) Bart Busschots:
So that’s Apple, Apple all the way down.
(3m)
Yeah, and by day, I am a cybersecurity specialist.
(3m 6s)
Before that, I was a sysadmin.
(3m 8s)
And in terms of podcasting, I do a monthly show called Let’s Talk Apple,
(3m 13s)
where I try to zoom in.
(3m 16s)
I zoom out, so sort of be, I call myself the inverse of Ken Ray.
(3m 20s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, right.
(3m 20s) Bart Busschots:
So Ken is your daily show with all the detail, and I zoom out and give you the once a month sort of,
(3m 25s)
yeah, the big picture view.
(3m 29s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, nice.
(3m 30s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah.
(3m 33s)
And I also appear regularly with Alison on the Silicast.
(3m 36s)
We do, I’m teaching Alison to program over a podcast, which is an interesting experience.
(3m 42s)
But that’s programming by itself, that’s been going on for a good while now.
(3m 46s)
And then I show up every two weeks to do a security segment called Security Bits where the rule is I’m not allowed to give people scary information and I’m not allowed to basically get all nerdy and technical, it has to be actually useful and practical, which is interesting.
(4m 1s) Tim Chaten:
And with the the monthly updates, it’s kind of like thematic stuff. It’s not like here was the news.
(4m 8s)
It’s more like trending of different uh of things or…
(4m 14s) Bart Busschots:
I try to pick main stories.
(4m 16s)
So now what I have discovered is you can’t only do main stories because sometimes you have these themes that like run for a year and a half, two years.
(4m 24s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(4m 24s) Bart Busschots:
So I started the show by sort of picking up at the moment.
(4m 26s)
The big theme is India, right?
(4m 28s)
It’s never it’s never the main story of the month.
(4m 31s)
But if I were to ignore it, it’d be right.
(4m 35s)
Like I’d be missing something.
(4m 36s)
So I sort of start the and the regulatory stuff is really it just keeps rolling.
(4m 36s) Tim Chaten:
Right, yeah.
(4m 40s) Bart Busschots:
Right. Everyone’s trying to regulate tech.
(4m 42s)
and that just rolls on.
(4m 44s)
So I start off with those and then I pick four big main themes.
(4m 47s)
And then I finish up with a few of the little stories like, “An apple did a new Beats Pro headset.” I mean, that’s not a main story, but you should mention it, you know,
(4m 52s) Tim Chaten:
Yes. Right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then, as this is a Vision OS podcast, I’m curious,
(4m 55s) Bart Busschots:
and that’s sort of the structure of the show.
Other headsets?
(5m 2s) Tim Chaten:
do you have any experience with the other headsets, Apple won’t call it a headset,
(5m 5s)
what’s a headset, like the PSVR-1 or 2, Oculus, or any of the other stuff out there?
(5m 10s) Bart Busschots:
No, they’ve always struck me as gimmicks.
(5m 14s)
I’ve never seen the why.
(5m 15s)
And I think I watched the Facebook demo was about a year and a half ago because everyone said it was the future and I should watch it.
(5m 24s)
And so I did. And I thought, yeah, maybe I felt no energy.
(5m 28s) Tim Chaten:
- Yeah, up until now, anything non-gaming is just not useful.
(5m 33s)
I love the gaming stuff.
(5m 37s)
I’ll get super absorbed in the games.
(5m 39s)
I have a PSVR 2, and it’s a freaking amazing,
(5m 42s)
I have the PSVR 1, and 2’s a light years ahead,
(5m 45s)
but it is purely about gaming,
(5m 47s)
and that’s, you know, even when Apple Vision Pro comes out,
(5m 49s)
that’s where I’m gonna be gaming,
(5m 50s)
’cause Vision Pro ain’t it.
(5m 52s)
But that’s okay.
(5m 54s)
This is a different kind of thing,
(5m 55s)
which is part of why people I think are excited.
(5m 59s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, because I think I was one of the few people who I don’t really care about the hardware because to me, it’s only America, this first generation of hardware, it’s going to be very expensive. So sitting here in Ireland, I was like, okay, fine, not a bad starting point.
(6m 8s) Tim Chaten:
Right. Yes.
(6m 14s) Bart Busschots:
They’re calling it a pro, very clearly signaling that there is a low end about to arrive at some point. But what amazed me, because I’d been listening to the rumor mill, because that’s what you do and we knew they were going to talk VR.
(6m 26s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. And I wasn’t excited. Yeah, it’s funny. I wasn’t excited, but the rumor is like, Oh,
(6m 29s) Bart Busschots:
I was not expecting…
Something different
(6m 35s) Tim Chaten:
I’m not going to care about this at all. Like Apple doesn’t get, you know, the gaming stuff and they don’t with this, but who they showed a way different vision of.
(6m 42s) Bart Busschots:
Right, exactly, so I was expecting a headset.
(6m 50s)
I was not expecting a whole new paradigm of computing.
(6m 53s)
And I mean, this is how I said it to Alison, but I felt the same feeling as I felt when Steve Jobs showed us iOS for the first time,
(7m 1s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(7m 1s) Bart Busschots:
which at that stage was still called iPhone OS.
(7m 4s)
It’s like, “Oh, wow, this is new.”
(7m 7s)
And what amazed me was how well, like, this is not.
(7m 12s)
half baked. And from the demo, I could see there was a lot here. But because it was WWDC,
(7m 20s)
and because they now let you go in for free, I went in and watched the developer sessions.
(7m 26s)
These API’s are mature and thought through. And when the when the developers are giving their presentations, they’re talking about when we were writing this app, we were doing this. And when we’re reading that app, we were doing that. This is easily seven or eight years worth of work.
(7m 41s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
(7m 43s) Bart Busschots:
And now they’re releasing it, cuz we’ve had these rumors.
(7m 46s) Tim Chaten:
Mm hmm. It does.
(7m 46s) Bart Busschots:
And in hindsight, all the rumors are factually true, but they missed the point completely.
(7m 51s)
It’s like, yeah, how silly Google is on the front,
(7m 54s)
which in the abstract sounds ridiculous.
(7m 57s)
It sounds so silly.
(7m 59s)
But when it’s actually a user interface for the people outside to know whether or not you are gone from the world or whether you are with them, it’s like, and And when they talk about the special kind of the split.
(8m 12s)
They that it looks different from different angles so that your eyes always look like they are in your head instead of pasted on the front of the goggles.
(8m 18s) Tim Chaten:
Right. I can’t wait to see that in person. I don’t know when I ever will, because I’ll probably be the user in the house and they can take a photo of me, but I’m not sure if the photo will do it justice. But if they nail that, and it sounds like they’re pretty happy with where it’ll end up in the final release. It’s not ready quite yet for the demos because I think they’re probably still working on the persona scanning, and it’s why the press didn’t do it and why it
(8m 53s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, and of course, the other thing with the with the beta of the operating system developers are playing with, it’s all from the inside out because they’re simulating it on a Mac or whatever.
(8m 59s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, right, yeah.
(9m 2s) Bart Busschots:
Right. So they’re in a simulator.
(9m 5s)
But even just the thought of having an infinity screen,
(9m 10s)
because that’s what it is, right, that that’s kind of what it is and that you can put.
(9m 11s) Tim Chaten:
Yes. Yeah, like it’s like have 20 iPads. The windows are like, you know, not iPad sized,
An Infinity Screen
(9m 23s) Tim Chaten:
but they’re full screen apps like iPads, but instead they’re like, you know, 50 inch monitors and they’re all full screen apps that you just have, you know, 20, 30 apps if you wanted to, you probably won’t. But, um, it, it sounds like the, it’s like we have these weird, like four apps at a time.
(9m 41s)
And I’m going to be doing a video on how to do that. So if you’re new to this, I highly recommend checking it out.
(9m 55s)
some smart thing with depending on what app.
(10m) Bart Busschots:
If you could do a virgin vision what you probably find is that stuff you’re not looking at is like a blurred out frame with no detail in it.
(10m 8s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, I’ve seen this on PSVR too. I was watching someone play my unit in GT7 and I could see where they were looking based on the social screen, the fidelity of the rendering. It’s like, “Oh, he’s not looking. Yeah, he’s looking exactly there. Everything else is not.” And it’s real time and you can’t perceive it so fast with that eye tracking in PlayStation.
(10m 31s)
It’s super fast and I’m sure Apple’s is even better, just how fast and quick that rendering
(10m 37s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, and since the whole UI is based off using your eye as your mouse,
(10m 41s)
the foveated rendering just makes all the sense in the world, because they need to know where you’re looking, because otherwise they can’t do anything anyway. So, you know, it’s not intrusive.
(10m 42s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
(10m 52s) Bart Busschots:
And actually, the other thing that struck me, to give an idea how not half-baked this is,
(10m 57s)
privacy is already baked in. We already have, from day one, the APIs are already making sure
(11m 4s)
Developers don’t get your gaze tracking.
(11m 7s)
So the developers only know when you click with your fingers, you know, sort of the Q operating system.
(11m 7s) Tim Chaten:
Yes. Right. Yeah. I do hope long-term game developers will have some special access where you can enable full eye tracking because there are mechanics in games that you feel like a god,
(11m 14s) Bart Busschots:
You know, you snap your fingers and things happen.
Privacy Baked In
(11m 16s) Bart Busschots:
It’s more more gentle, obviously.
(11m 29s) Tim Chaten:
like in Synapse, where you’re looking at a character and you lift them with your hand and smash them to the ground. You only get that through eye tracking, so I hope there…
(11m 37s)
in some future gaming API, they allow stuff like that for games, because it makes some games just work, and other games it wouldn’t even allow that possibility to exist.
(11m 49s)
Yes.
(11m 50s) Bart Busschots:
If you think of the Apple model of the world, it’s app entitlements.
(11m 53s)
So at the moment we have entitlements for can you access my contacts?
(11m 54s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(11m 57s) Bart Busschots:
So I think can you access my eyes is just going to be.
(12m 1s)
I mean, I don’t phrase it that way, but you know what I mean.
(12m 1s) Tim Chaten:
Yes. No, yeah, that’s what it is, yeah. We’re…
(12m 7s)
So, I’m curious, were you around for the transition from command line interface to GUI?
Paradigm Leaps
(12m 14s) Tim Chaten:
How will… do I want to ask a whole tour for that one?
(12m 15s) Bart Busschots:
Yes, okay, so my first computer was an Amstrad PC clone, before Amstrad went belly up, and it was DOS 3.
(12m 25s) Tim Chaten:
Okay. Okay.
(12m 30s) Bart Busschots:
So I remember when Windows was an app that you would run from the command line with the command win, and you would type win and that would launch Windows.
(12m 38s) Tim Chaten:
Oh yes!
(12m 40s)
Mhm.
(12m 41s) Bart Busschots:
And then eventually, when you got confident enough that Windows wasn’t terrible, you put
(12m 45s)
in autoexec.bat, and then the computer would run the command win on boot for you, and you would think you’d booted straight into Windows.
(12m 50s) Tim Chaten:
Yes, yes, yeah, I remember that being a thing, yeah, I’ve totally forgotten that era of my life because I was very young and yeah, that was.
(12m 53s) Bart Busschots:
And you would exit Windows to play games.
(12m 56s)
You would go up, you click on the start menu, yeah, yeah.
(13m 4s)
And then Windows 95 was a game changer, because Windows 3.1, like I opened it for paint and right because I could run it to a drop matrix printer but that was kind of it.
(13m 10s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(13m 11s)
Right.
(13m 15s) Bart Busschots:
And to me, DOS was the world and then Windows 95 came along and that was the game changer in terms of okay this is now a machine that is graphical that is now the norm and if I want to command it’s going to be this little floating black window inside of this graphical universe and so that was absolutely a paradigm shift. And then moving from indirect mouse interaction to direct finger interaction on iOS is as big of a shift because people find the abstraction of
(13m 45s)
I move the mouse to move the cursor to make the things happen to I put my finger on the thing.
(13m 50s)
It’s just way like I put my finger on the thing is way easier and I just look at the thing is now where we’ve gone right so the new version of us is I just look at a thing.
(13m 51s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Direct interaction. Yeah. Yeah. And it strikes me, um, I was looking at the timetables here. Uh, so 19, just roughly 1984 to 2007, that’s 23 years. And then 2024 to 2007, um, that’s 17 years. We’re, we’re almost at the same, we’re six years away from
(14m 21s)
taking them this long for another huge paradigm shift, which is wild to think because iOS feels so, it feels so new, but it’s not. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
(14m 28s) Bart Busschots:
Well, isn’t it strange to say that, you know, I remember phones before the iPhone and you say that to young people these days, but you mean phones before the what you used to type letters with numbers.
(14m 37s) Tim Chaten:
I was terror. I was terrible at that. I’d never sent any.
(14m 40s) Bart Busschots:
So, yes, yes, we did.
(14m 42s)
Our we thought those the Nokia’s with their five or six lines of text had these
(14m 52s) Tim Chaten:
Yes, yes. But yeah, it’s, yeah, it’s in the in, you know, so the, you know, the Macs for it off all these different form factors, laptops, desktops, and all in ones, and then iPhones for it off iPad, Apple Watch, and, you know, all these different form factors. It’ll be very curious to see what all form factors as you know, as far as off, I know people are talking about glasses, which would be probably pure augmented reality without this VR mode, which I think will still have a place for the movie watching and some, some applications.
Many Form Factors
(15m 28s) Tim Chaten:
Like it’ll be interesting to see the different form factors this OS spurs off because it’ll have at least a couple of them.
(15m 37s) Bart Busschots:
Absolutely. The thing I have noticed is that at no point has any form factor I have ever used in my life gone away because people always talk about blah is a black killer, never, never, never, never, never, never.
(15m 44s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(15m 45s)
Yes.
(15m 48s)
Yeah.
(15m 50s) Bart Busschots:
Right. It’s always yes.
(15m 51s) Tim Chaten:
[laughs]
(15m 51s) Bart Busschots:
And the iPad is a laptop killer.
(15m 53s) Tim Chaten:
[laughs]
(15m 53s) Bart Busschots:
No, it isn’t.
(15m 54s)
The only exception to that is the netbook,
(15m 59s)
which was just so compromised as to be awful.
(16m 2s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, yeah, yes, they do.
(16m 2s) Bart Busschots:
It was a dead end on the tree of life and good riddance.
(16m 7s)
Right. You know, the laptops came back to fill that niche, like the MacBook Adorable,
(16m 12s)
which Apple have to bring that form factor back now that they have the M series chips,
(16m 15s) Tim Chaten:
Apple Silicon do it, yeah, absolutely, with a better keyboard.
(16m 16s) Bart Busschots:
they have to bring it back. So it’s always.
(16m 20s) Tim Chaten:
[laughs]
(16m 22s) Bart Busschots:
Oh, yeah. Yes, please. Please. Yes. But it’s. Yeah. So the form factors don’t go away.
(16m 27s)
So to me, there’s been the obvious paradigm shifts are in the UI, but there’s been a second paradigm shift that’s been going on.
(16m 35s)
It’s taken about two decades.
(16m 37s)
But I think we’re nearly there.
(16m 38s)
And that is what I call the Star Trekification of our tech.
(16m 42s)
So iCloud is the sleeper feature.
(16m 45s)
We used to put things on devices.
(16m 46s) Tim Chaten:
Yes.
(16m 47s)
Yes.
(16m 49s) Bart Busschots:
I put a file on a device and I had to do so much work to put it onto another device and to bring it with me.
(16m 57s)
I need to make a presentation tomorrow.
(16m 59s)
I need to put it on this floppy disk.
(17m 1s)
I need to put it on this thumb drive.
(17m 2s)
I need to put it in a thing.
(17m 4s)
No, our data exists.
(17m 7s)
in the cloud and you pick up a device and you interact with it.
(17m 11s)
So the devices, your interactions, which to me is a Star Trek world, right?
(17m 15s)
You don’t hear Picard’s one minute.
(17m 18s)
He’s talking on the end, you know, to the computer.
(17m 19s) Tim Chaten:
My pad didn’t sync.
(17m 20s) Bart Busschots:
The next minute, he’s he’s.
(17m 22s)
Yeah, exactly. Right.
(17m 23s)
Because it was ready room and he picks up where you left off.
(17m 25s)
You know, you want to the big display on the back of the bridge or whatever.
(17m 28s)
It’s all just there.
(17m 30s)
And we haven’t had a moment.
(17m 34s)
But very, very slowly we’ve.
(17m 37s)
Gone from OK, well, I cloud is now managing to sync the settings on this app without breaking.
(17m 40s)
Thank you, iCloud. Oh, look, it’s got my email and sink.
(17m 43s)
Oh, my calendars are in sync.
(17m 45s)
And little by little by little by little, all of our stuff is in sync.
(17m 48s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah And I think the future is also The same apps well the same Potentially the same purchase would run everywhere Vision OS we’re getting there
(17m 48s) Bart Busschots:
And we’re now at the stage where when I get a new computer, I connect it to Office 365 and I connect it to iCloud and I’m done.
(17m 55s)
Right. That’s it. No, no more.
(17m 58s)
I have to download all of my apps.
(18m)
No, I have to get all of my settings.
(18m 11s)
And we’re getting there too, yeah.
(18m 13s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, yeah, the Mac has that very limited to the iOS and this
(18m 18s)
iOS world. It’s it’s different. Yeah, it has.
(18m 20s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, but the foundation’s been poured for that, right? Because with the new APIs, I always get these mixed up, not Catalyst.
(18m 31s) Tim Chaten:
You can do universal purchase, right, to cross, like, you could buy one app that does run on the Mac. Is that, like…
(18m 38s) Bart Busschots:
There are universal purchases, but to me, the real foundation is a layer below that,
(18m 43s)
is that when Apple redid their APIs two or three–
(18m 48s)
it must be three developer conferences ago.
(18m 53s)
So now you write– basically with SwiftUI is kind of what’s done it.
(18m 57s)
So you write the brains of your app in Swift,
(19m)
and those same brains exist from the watch to the television,
(19m 4s)
and to every size in between.
(19m 6s)
And then you use the–
(19m 8s)
same basic syntax for describing your UI.
(19m 11s)
So you say, I want a button.
(19m 14s)
But you have different size classes to handle the different displays.
(19m 17s)
So with SwiftUI, they’ve gone to a declarative syntax, which is very nerdy.
(19m 22s)
But it’s actually spectacularly important for us, the user,
(19m 25s)
because you don’t say how you want it.
(19m 28s)
You say what you want.
(19m 30s)
And you let the developer tools give you the how.
(19m 32s)
So you say that you need to have a certain type of interface.
(19m 36s)
and then that will be made look right on.
(19m 38s)
The iPhone, the iPad and the Mac and in that vision OS and that as developers rewrite make new apps from the ground up with this kind of a foundation from the basis, it becomes completely natural that everything will just exist on the different apps on the different platforms because everything is like that.
(19m 56s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, right Right, yeah, yeah
(19m 59s) Bart Busschots:
The apps like that, your data is like that, your settings can be like that.
(20m 4s)
And that’s the world I want to live in.
(20m 6s)
You know, I need something quick and small because I’m on.
(20m 8s)
I want an immersive experience, I, you know, I’m in the kitchen, I’m cooking.
(20m 12s)
I just want something I can sit over there.
(20m 14s)
These different form factors to determine what I use, not, oh yeah, well, this app doesn’t run on this platform and oh no, my, my document I’m working on isn’t here.
(20m 23s)
All of that’s going away and thank goodness.
(20m 24s) Tim Chaten:
- Yeah, yeah, no, it’s great.
(20m 27s)
And so as a version one, from what I’ve seen hardware wise,
(20m 30s)
it seems like they’ve been put away,
(20m 33s)
go work in this for like seven, eight years or whatever,
Best Version 1 Ever?
(20m 35s) Tim Chaten:
because the hardware, the technology is finally at a point where they can ship a minimal viable experience.
(20m 44s)
And for this kind of product,
(20m 46s)
it needs to be so damn good that it tricks you into believing these cameras,
(20m 54s)
the screen you’re seeing through is real life.
(20m 57s)
‘Cause if it doesn’t do that, it’s not gonna succeed.
(21m 1s)
So in my, looking over what Apple’s other version ones,
(21m 5s)
is this the best version one hardware wise they’ve shipped?
(21m 8s)
I wasn’t around for Mac 128K at the time.
(21m 11s)
At the time was that as much of a, or yeah.
(21m 15s) Bart Busschots:
Hmm. That’s an interesting question, because I think the iPhone was pretty well baked in terms of its hardware.
(21m 22s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, the fluid scrolling from day one,
(21m 22s) Bart Busschots:
I know that the…
(21m 25s) Tim Chaten:
it quickly saw its age with apps and whatnot.
(21m 30s)
But, you know, yes, yes.
(21m 31s) Bart Busschots:
Right, because the OS was very basic, right? Because every app ran as root.
(21m 36s)
The veneer was there, but under the hood, the OS was very rough.
(21m 43s)
But the hardware, it was the direct touch.
(21m 48s)
To be believable, it has to be fast enough to keep up with you.
(21m 49s) Tim Chaten:
Yes.
(21m 53s) Bart Busschots:
And it’s the same problem with Vision OS.
(21m 55s)
And I think they have done as well in the two.
(21m 57s)
So I would say that the first iPhone is of equal value.
(22m 1s)
MVP to this. I think they’re equal.
(22m 2s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. Yes. No. Yeah. Yeah. The screens, the screens, I can’t wait to see because so I’ve you PS here too, is two X per eye, two K per eye. And, um, and this is double that. Yeah. It’s over,
(22m 4s) Bart Busschots:
The difference being that this is just so much harder that it could not have been done before now.
(22m 20s)
And this is 4k per eye, isn’t it?
(22m 23s) Tim Chaten:
it’s a little bit over four K per eye. And, um, I do struggle with some text reading within PSVR to and like doubling that oh this is
(22m 32s)
just going to be just you know stellar I can’t wait to see what you know just apps and reading stuff will look like in here because the screens are going to be just so incredible. It does? Yes.
(22m 44s) Bart Busschots:
Well, it literally has to be red in the quality They should have kept that branding
(22m 47s) Tim Chaten:
And for gaming 2k4i is you know it does the trick for most stuff and it’s HDR and you know when you’re looking at the sun in some games it kind of kind of blinds you a little bit you got to look away. So the trick is there for HDR stuff. Yeah. So.
(22m 59s) Bart Busschots:
Wow. Well, that’s cool.
(23m 1s)
Actually, with moving content, your eye naturally blurs things.
(23m 2s) Tim Chaten:
Um, yeah, I’m excited to see this tech.
(23m 10s) Bart Busschots:
So for a gamer’s stuff, the bar is way, way lower.
(23m 13s)
Whereas what Apple are trying to do here is to have a desktop operating system that’s in your head, for want of a better term.
(23m 19s)
And so if I’m going to be sitting here, working through an Excel spreadsheet,
(23m 22s)
trying to pull some information out of a blob of data,
(23m 27s)
I actually do need.
(23m 29s)
It to be indistinguishable from reality, right?
(23m 31s) Tim Chaten:
- You do.
(23m 31s) Bart Busschots:
I really need to be able to see that text with all of its perfect anti-alias thing.
(23m 32s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, otherwise you’re gonna get a headache real quick,
(23m 36s) Bart Busschots:
And it needs to look perfect.
(23m 39s) Tim Chaten:
trying to, yeah, or you’re gonna try to make the text bigger which is not a good experience to,
Windows at a distance
(23m 44s) Tim Chaten:
you like to make it artificially bigger.
(23m 45s) Bart Busschots:
I guess you can physically pull it forward, right?
(23m 46s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, and I think Apple’s encouraging this default distance from an eye, yeah, from an eye health and comfort standpoint
(23m 47s) Bart Busschots:
You can you can physically grab the window and pull it towards you, of course.
(23m 56s)
very strongly.
(24m 1s) Tim Chaten:
like they didn’t show, like in my head they,
(24m 5s)
and I’m curious, like they didn’t show someone working on a virtual sheet of paper on the desk looking down on the table in front of them,
(24m 11s)
which theoretically you could do.
(24m 14s)
But I, in, you know, thinking it over,
(24m 17s)
maybe it’s the like, it can do that stuff but your eye won’t appreciate that long-term and that’s probably not gonna be healthy for your eye and probably working at that often distance.
(24m 32s)
You know, setup is the better thing for now until they can get variable,
(24m 38s)
like actual physical moving focal plane within the device.
(24m 43s) Bart Busschots:
Well, they talked about it on one of the developer ones.
(24m 46s)
I think it was the principles of spatial design.
(24m 49s)
And they talk about some of these things.
(24m 51s)
And so the stuff– there’s a default radius around you.
(24m 56s)
And it is actually a sphere.
(24m 57s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. Right.
(24m 57s) Bart Busschots:
And by default, your apps go onto that sphere.
(25m)
And they say quite clearly that this is where things are comfortable.
(25m 4s)
Unless you have a really good reason to,
(25m 6s)
you don’t come forward or back on that z-axis.
(25m 9s)
So you, by all means, let the user push things away to take it out of there.
(25m 12s) Tim Chaten:
Yes.
(25m 13s)
Yeah, further away.
(25m 13s) Bart Busschots:
I’m not dealing with this now, go away.
(25m 15s)
Yeah, but in terms of working, it’s very much,
(25m 16s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, just in a, yeah.
(25m 20s) Bart Busschots:
you have this default sphere on which your apps sit and they go around you.
(25m 25s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. Yeah. Which makes total sense. I’ve been studying and working on my own vision of the past many years and improving it and that totally makes sense as to why you’d want if that focal length is set up in the headset, primarily use it there. Like have short glances down to see the real world and maybe there’s a short glance down at like a music player we can tap play or pause. I don’t know if this is…
(25m 25s) Bart Busschots:
And by default, it is very much around you.
Tapping windows?
(25m 55s) Tim Chaten:
a thing where you could actually tap a physical… like, can I tap a play button? Can you tap a play button or do you need to use the little gesture?
(26m 4s) Bart Busschots:
No, no, you can have virtual keyboards that are basically painted onto a table.
(26m 10s) Tim Chaten:
Okay. Yeah.
(26m 10s) Bart Busschots:
So the API is, so it is a spatial OS.
(26m 15s)
So the API is detect the shape of the room.
(26m 17s)
And as a developer, you can, you can stick things to real world things.
(26m 21s)
So you can put your app on the table.
(26m 23s) Tim Chaten:
And I can tap on things within that app.
(26m 23s) Bart Busschots:
And you can tap on things on the table.
(26m 27s)
So the table becomes your working surface.
(26m 29s)
So if you were doing some sort of a DJ app or something,
Adornments
(26m 31s) Bart Busschots:
or something you could have the table in front of you become your…
(26m 34s) Tim Chaten:
And this OS, unlike iPadOS, which has multi-window, but sorta, it’s really hard to do, like, um,
(26m 46s)
what do you call those, like, panels, um, what are those, like, toolbox panels and stuff.
(26m 52s)
It’s hard to do that with an iPadOS.
(26m 53s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, pop-ups are just not a natural thing on the iPad’s interface.
(26m 54s) Tim Chaten:
Pop-ups, uh, like, yeah, auxiliary windows, auxiliary windows.
(26m 59s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, do you know what they’re called?
(27m 2s) Tim Chaten:
In the original OS it seems like that’s…
(27m 4s)
What are they called?
(27m 5s) Bart Busschots:
So, if you look at the developer docs, they actually have a name for them in Vision OS.
(27m 10s)
They’re called “adornments”.
(27m 12s) Tim Chaten:
Oh, I love that, yeah.
(27m 12s) Bart Busschots:
Isn’t that so sweet? I love that.
(27m 14s) Tim Chaten:
It’s very sweet.
(27m 15s) Bart Busschots:
And they actually say that you should have them slightly towards you,
(27m 15s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(27m 18s) Bart Busschots:
and they don’t need to be connected to the main window.
(27m 18s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, which, yeah.
(27m 21s) Bart Busschots:
As long as they’re close enough, your brain will…
(27m 22s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, it reminds me of the Mac a bit more than iPad in that regard.
(27m 23s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, that’s together. And so your panel can float.
(27m 27s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, the Mac does this all the time.
(27m 29s)
But they do recommend them being closed,
(27m 32s)
but you can move them anywhere you want to,
(27m 34s)
like Crouton’s doing with timers spread across the room.
(27m 35s) Bart Busschots:
Yes.
(27m 37s) Tim Chaten:
Someone could make a little touch bar.
(27m 42s)
The new desk, the Mac touch bar could come back.
(27m 45s)
Apple could even make a little huge touch bar if they wanted to, and you could put it on your table,
(27m 50s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, I suppose they could, yeah.
(27m 53s) Tim Chaten:
which would be kind of interesting.
(27m 53s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, yes, actually.
(27m 55s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(27m 56s) Bart Busschots:
Well, for certain applications, it will be very powerful.
(27m 56s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, I think so.
(27m 58s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, so there’s a lot of possibility here.
(28m 1s)
But out of the box, it will do very clever things like take your your menu bars and instead of them being a menu bar at the top of your screen,
(28m 7s)
they become an adornment above your window.
(28m 10s) Tim Chaten:
- Yeah, music composition apps could have a virtual piano on the table in front of you, and that would be the input.
(28m 18s)
Like they tried this on iPad,
(28m 19s)
I don’t think it truly succeeds there.
(28m 21s)
I always want to use the MIDI keyboard because it’s a little bit too small on iPad or whatever,
(28m 25s)
but having a full-size piano or a drum kit or whatever,
(28m 30s)
that seems like that could be.
(28m 34s) Bart Busschots:
Yes. And I think what the iPad suffers from is there’s just not enough space.
(28m 38s) Tim Chaten:
Right. Yeah. Yes.
(28m 38s) Bart Busschots:
You feel cramped, you feel constrained.
(28m 40s)
And that’s what I’ve always struggled with with computers.
(28m 42s)
I have always wanted more monitors, bigger monitors.
(28m 45s)
I like I am in physical space.
(28m 49s)
I am a big desk person.
(28m 50s)
I don’t like having stuff obscured.
(28m 53s)
So if I’m working on five things, I want them spread out.
(28m 56s)
And I want to be able to keep them spread out.
(28m 57s)
So I always have big L shaped desks and in virtual space.
(28m 59s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(29m 1s) Bart Busschots:
want the same and it has been a…
(29m 4s)
perpetual fight and that is what excites me the most I think about Vision OS is that I can spread out. I can just spread out. And as long as the stuff is clustered, it makes perfect sense, which is how you’d work on a real desk as well, right? So I’m working on this, you know, presentation or whatever. I have all of the stuff for Keynote is here and the adornments are close by, but next to it is my research from Wikipedia, my research from this, a couple of bits and bobs, and that’s just a little cluster here. And then And I can literally turn around in space and do something else.
(29m 34s)
And when I turn back, everything’s exactly where I left it.
(29m 36s)
And it’s where I left it in physical space.
(29m 38s) Tim Chaten:
Yes. Yeah.
(29m 40s) Bart Busschots:
Which is a bit mind-blowing to think that you can put your virtual documents in physical space and that when you, even if you walk away, they’ll stay where you put them.
(29m 48s) Tim Chaten:
- Mm-hmm, I so want to test how good this memory is.
(29m 53s)
Can I commute, if I had a commuting job, commute to work,
(29m 58s)
leave Windows there, come home,
(30m 1s)
it remembers where stuff is in my basement, my bedroom.
(30m 5s)
Can it store thousands of Windows and when does it start to forget stuff?
(30m 8s) Bart Busschots:
I don’t know.
(30m 11s) Tim Chaten:
One cool idea I heard is the idea of a very simple app
(30m 16s)
putting pitch.
(30m 18s)
pictures on your wall with cute frames.
(30m 21s)
And maybe they’re even live photos that when you look at them,
(30m 21s) Bart Busschots:
Mmm!
(30m 22s)
Why not, yeah?
(30m 23s) Tim Chaten:
they’ll play the live photo role briefly.
(30m 25s)
And then you’re kind of like in the background, but yeah,
(30m 27s)
but in that situation, you’d probably have a ton of wind.
(30m 32s)
If you use this app a lot,
(30m 33s)
you’d have a ton of windows decorating your environment.
(30m 36s)
And potentially you can even have stuff that looks like it’s standing up on your desk, like a little, you know,
(30m 42s)
picture on a, you know, a standup frame or whatever.
(30m 46s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, I know that when you put the headset on, it does a room sort of scan.
(30m 46s) Tim Chaten:
that I’m curious about apps like that.
(30m 48s)
Could that really work?
(30m 55s) Bart Busschots:
So I don’t know what survives between sessions.
(30m 55s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah Yeah, it’s got a yeah, I wonder how many rooms I remember is it does it yeah Yes Yes Yeah, it’s brilliant. Yeah, and yeah that memory I’m just so curious about it because that’ll be very interesting for stuff like that and there’s that whole idea of
(30m 58s) Bart Busschots:
Right, exactly, because I know we have timer apps where you can like,
(31m 5s)
I want a timer for the eggs, put it on the eggs, right?
(31m 9s)
Literally, put the timer on the saucepan that contains the eggs,
(31m 12s)
which is such a cool idea.
(31m 23s) Tim Chaten:
You hit the button to…
(31m 25s)
…as you do on every other headset, to re-center it.
(31m 26s) Bart Busschots:
Oh, yes, yes.
(31m 27s) Tim Chaten:
And when you do that…
(31m 27s) Bart Busschots:
Well, you see, but the apps, the windows in your apps exist in, well, they exist in multiple possible states, but sort of the two most obvious states are they are either in the air or they are on a thing.
(31m 29s) Tim Chaten:
…will it only re-center stuff from that room?
(31m 32s)
So it knows what room you’re in.
(31m 48s) Bart Busschots:
So when you recenter the apps, I think it’s the ones that are in the air that will recenter,
(31m 52s)
the ones on a thing, because they’re anchored to…
(31m 55s) Tim Chaten:
- Right, so what anchor points?
(31m 59s)
Are walls anchor points, furniture?
(32m 2s)
Like what are the various anchor points?
(32m 3s) Bart Busschots:
Surfaces, basically, it scans for surfaces and then,
(32m 4s) Tim Chaten:
Surfaces, okay.
(32m 5s)
Okay.
(32m 8s) Bart Busschots:
so the API is thinking surfaces and you as the developer say,
(32m 11s)
my thing can sit on a vertical surface or a horizontal surface or something bigger than so big or whatever.
(32m 17s)
I don’t remember the exact function calls,
(32m 20s) Tim Chaten:
Could… yeah.
(32m 20s) Bart Busschots:
but the developers basically, yeah,
(32m 22s) Tim Chaten:
An iPad on a stand, could that be a surface where you’re like putting something over the iPad’s screen?
(32m 22s) Bart Busschots:
they have to interact with this concept of surfaces.
(32m 33s)
I almost certainly could be, because what I sort of envision that you could end up buying is like photo frames with some sort of a barcode on them that gives them some sort of an ID that maps them to a central service and that anyone with a headset who walks by and sees a frame with that barcode will get the appropriate image of the day so that it’s not your your headset remembering a thing, but your headset recognizes, oh, yeah, that’s a doohickey from Blady Black Company, you know, Barts Magic Frames.
(32m 59s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, yeah, right, that’d be so cool.
(33m) Bart Busschots:
And then it goes off and it looks up the ID and it says, oh, today, that’s a picture.
(33m 4s) Tim Chaten:
This episode is sponsored by Agenda,
Sponsor – Agenda
(33m 7s) Tim Chaten:
which recently rolled out version 18.
(33m 10s)
In this quick break, I wanna share a little bit about how I use the collaboration feature in Agenda to create this show.
(33m 15s)
For those that wanna really deep dive into Agenda,
(33m 17s)
I’d encourage you to go back and listen to episode 168 of my other podcast, iPad Pros,
(33m 23s)
where I spoke with Alex, the co-founder of Agenda.
(33m 26s)
So onto collaboration in Agenda.
(33m 29s)
Agenda is an incredible native app for iPhone, iPad, and the Mac.
(33m 32s)
They’ve also shared with me that they’ll be on Vision OS at launch next year.
(33m 36s)
With version 16 of Agenda,
(33m 38s)
they rolled out a very thought out and rock solid collaboration feature that lets you collaborate with any Agenda note using all the tools you have in Agenda to create a rich note filled with images,
(33m 49s)
Apple Pencils, sketches, tables, and much more.
(33m 52s)
This has been my go-to way to work with guests since the feature was introduced.
(33m 56s)
To collaborate on a note,
(33m 57s)
You simply hit the little collaboration button.
(33m 59s)
You can see the collaboration icon in the top right of the note next to the calendar icon.
(34m 3s)
From there, you can invite anyone with a URL or for those you’ve already collaborated with,
(34m 7s)
you can pick them from a list of previous people you’ve worked with.
(34m 11s)
If you use Agenda for both personal and work uses, you can even set up different names to say “Share an Agenda note” with the name “Dad” if you are working with your children on a note,
(34m 20s)
and then you can use your professional name for work collaborations.
(34m 24s)
When you open an Agenda link, your web browser will open up that link
(34m 29s)
that allows you to get started with Agenda if you’ve never used the app before,
(34m 33s)
and it will let you choose where in your Agenda library you want to store that note.
(34m 37s)
Those you are sharing with can do full collaborations without spending a single penny and do all this from the free version of Agenda on iPad, Mac, or iPhone.
(34m 45s)
If you or any of your collaborators decide to stop sharing that note,
(34m 49s)
the latest version of that note will be saved locally for you to keep and continue to work with.
(34m 53s)
Data for shared notes are encrypted before upload and when stored in the cloud.
(34m 57s)
loud.
Your Office Setup
(34m 59s) Tim Chaten:
I’m your host, Adam McClure.
(35m 6s)
If you haven’t tried Agenda Collaboration, I’d really encourage you to give it a try.
(35m 10s)
Collaboration is one of the many incredible premium features if you are the one sharing the note.
(35m 15s)
But as with all Agenda premium features, you just have to pay the once and you’ll keep all of the premium features offered when your year is up on that subscription.
(35m 24s)
Or you can now opt for the new Lifetime Unlock, which will unlock the full power of Agenda on all your Apple devices, including Vision OS, next year with a single one-time purchase.
(35m 35s)
To learn more, go to agenda.com, download Agenda 18 for free from the App Store.
(35m 41s)
My thanks again to Agenda for sponsoring this episode of Vision Pros.
(35m 45s)
Learn more at http://www.agenda.com.
(35m 50s)
Your office setup is, I see a wall behind you very close.
(35m 55s)
Is there a wall in front of you?
(35m 59s)
So for me, I’ve got all this space behind me.
(36m 3s)
Like when I work in Vision OS, I might just want to turn my chair around and kind of work in the rest of this.
(36m 10s)
And I don’t know if I like get a new, I don’t know, I get a little table on wheels where I can just put that in front of me for the keyboard and stuff.
(36m 18s)
Do you think like for people that don’t have all this extra space behind them, whatever,
(36m 24s)
that virtual reality mode that gets like, with that.
(36m 29s)
do the trick to give you the space to work with.
(36m 32s) Bart Busschots:
Well, yeah, so if you’re in a place where you just want reality to go away, you can basically say, “I’d like to work on Mount Hood today.”
(36m 39s)
And then you have infinity space in front of you.
(36m 39s) Tim Chaten:
Right, right, okay.
(36m 42s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, that’s an interesting question. So part of me is thinking…
(36m 43s) Tim Chaten:
And then you have the partial where you can just have the stuff in the distance be virtual and then the stuff closer to you be more real, yeah.
(36m 55s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah cuz it is a dial which is kind of an interesting concept because everything else has been VR or AR.
(36m 55s) Tim Chaten:
Yes.
(37m 1s) Bart Busschots:
Where is an apples universe it’s like well how much it’s never become a spectrum.
(37m 2s) Tim Chaten:
Which I love that, yeah, yeah.
(37m 7s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah and then again with the whole this is not half baked how do you come up with something so thought through as your version one product.
(37m 15s) Tim Chaten:
And when you’re in VR, someone can,
(37m 19s)
if they’re close enough, can poke in so you see them,
(37m 23s) Bart Busschots:
I love, yeah.
(37m 23s) Tim Chaten:
which is great ’cause I play VR and I have the pass-through audio in so the mic picks up room noise a bunch so I don’t accidentally hit somebody or I’m more aware of what’s going on in the room.
(37m 37s) Bart Busschots:
[sniff sniff]
(37m 37s) Tim Chaten:
But it would be nice if someone,
(37m 39s) Bart Busschots:
Don’t get frightened out of your living skin!
(37m 40s) Tim Chaten:
yes, yes, it can be,
(37m 43s)
Is Hesley in the resident–
(37m 45s)
Evil Village, that game, I’m already on edge.
(37m 48s)
Yes, exactly.
(37m 48s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, a tap on the shoulder.
(37m 52s) Tim Chaten:
And it would be so nice if someone could just poke in and it just pauses the game or whatever.
(37m 58s)
And that seems like a no-brainer feature
(38m 4s) Bart Busschots:
And that’s what’s in the APIs, right?
(38m 6s)
And again, that ties us back to the Google Eyes on the outside.
(38m 8s)
So at the point in time where the inside view notices the person and breaks them into your view, or is the point in time when the eyes get,
(38m 18s)
when the weird fuzzy pattern becomes the eyes.
(38m 20s) Tim Chaten:
Yes, yes.
(38m 21s) Bart Busschots:
So when they break into your vision, your eyes break into their view,
(38m 22s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, related.
(38m 24s) Bart Busschots:
that those two are connected events.
(38m 28s)
So this sort of has me thinking, so at the moment I have my L-shaped desk in a corner because that makes.
(38m 34s)
In a world of physical screens, that makes sense, which means when I turn to my right, I’m looking at the door and so I don’t, I never want my back to the door. I hate having my back to the door.
(38m 42s) Tim Chaten:
No, never. Yep.
(38m 43s) Bart Busschots:
So basically at the moment I have the door here on my right and I have my window on my left but what if I turn my desk and I ended up sitting facing the door? At the moment I wouldn’t do that because the screen would have the glare of the window.
(38m 53s) Tim Chaten:
- Yeah.
(38m 53s)
- Yes.
(38m 56s) Bart Busschots:
No such thing in a virtual world.
(38m 57s) Tim Chaten:
- No glare.
(38m 59s)
- Yeah.
(39m)
That’s something I’m very excited for is like,
(39m 2s)
working outside has never been fun because you always have glare,
(39m 5s) Bart Busschots:
Oh Bye bye.
(39m 7s) Tim Chaten:
no matter how fall or spring of a day it is,
(39m 10s)
there’s always glare.
(39m 11s)
The screens are never bright enough.
(39m 12s)
The iPhone 14 Pro is probably the first screen that’s usable outside, or the Apple Watch Ultra,
(39m 19s) Bart Busschots:
Still not fun though, you’re right, yeah.
(39m 19s) Tim Chaten:
I think is that same screen.
(39m 20s)
It’s not fun, it overheats the iPhone pretty quickly.
(39m 23s)
But this, as long as it’s not like a 100 degree day, it’s like a nice fall or spring day,
(39m 29s)
there’s potential to be work on your little patio outside.
(39m 32s)
That could be interesting.
(39m 33s) Bart Busschots:
Oh, Jesus. Yeah, my garden is more than big enough to have all of the windows in it.
(39m 35s) Tim Chaten:
Yes.
(39m 39s)
Now Apple’s never demoed or shown or encouraged working like outside in your backyard,
(39m 45s)
but I’m curious how well.
(39m 50s) Bart Busschots:
That’s that’s oh, oh, I just may need I need a more comfy patio chair.
(39m 55s) Tim Chaten:
Right.
(39m 57s) Bart Busschots:
That that’s I hadn’t even thought that.
(39m 58s)
The other thing is, I could I could see myself like I work at a university.
(40m 2s) Tim Chaten:
Mm-hmm Yeah Yeah Right Yeah Yeah, yeah, I’m very curious on that yeah, cuz yeah, I’m very curious the scanning for outdoors Is that just not a part of this and it will get?
(40m 2s) Bart Busschots:
We have a lot of thanks to covid.
(40m 5s)
We have a lot of outdoor areas for sitting.
(40m 7s)
And they put up like sunshade.
(40m 9s)
So basically giant big, big canvas coverings is massively open areas under canvas, but you can just students love sitting out there.
(40m 18s)
But I could just sit out there and…
(40m 20s)
just work?
(40m 31s)
Well, it’s LiDAR, right? But it’s LiDAR. So if there’s a surface, but particularly if you’re in the mode where you’re not anchoring your windows, right? Because if you’re in that normal desktop mode, they’re on that virtual sphere around your head. So if you wanted to, but I don’t think you necessarily need to anchor anything, right? So if you’re, if you’re just particularly if you’re, if you’re in an input mode, I think you need a table. But not a, yeah, be it virtual or physical. But a lot of the time you’re in a digesting mode, right? You’re, you’re analyzing,
(40m 32s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, it is lighter.
(40m 33s)
Right.
(40m 34s)
Yeah, if you’re on a patio, you could probably anchor the table and stuff in the nearby vicinity.
(40m 47s)
Yeah.
(40m 48s)
No.
(40m 49s)
No, you wouldn’t need to.
(40m 57s)
For a keyboard.
(40m 59s)
Yeah.
(41m 3s)
Right.
(41m 7s)
And you can use voice input to do your searches and Safari or whatnot.
(41m 7s) Bart Busschots:
you’re looking, you’re exploring. And there’s a lot of scrolling and manipulating, which is your hands. You don’t actually need to anchor a single window to anything that can exist really comfortably in the floaty mode where you’re the virtual sphere. I mean, astronomy has always been a love of mine. So, we pretend that…
(41m 13s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(41m 19s)
No.
(41m 21s)
Yes.
(41m 27s)
Yeah.
(41m 31s) Bart Busschots:
the stars are on a sphere around our heads. And, to some extent, this is exactly the same model here. We’re pretending these windows are on a sphere around our heads. So, it’s not the celestial sphere, it’s the app sphere. But that’s fine, right? So, if you’re sitting in your garden, just sitting back in a lounge chair, I mean, heck, you could lie down. Why couldn’t your apps be in the air? Yeah. Little cloud background, you know.
(41m 38s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
(41m 49s)
- Yes, yes, they could be.
(41m 51s)
- Totally.
(41m 53s)
- Yeah, I mean, I could, yeah, for a change of ergonomics,
(41m 57s)
so as you know, people are sitting all day,
(41m 59s)
lie down on the floor, maybe, you know,
(42m 3s)
depending on the floor or whatever, you know, you could,
(42m 6s) Bart Busschots:
Roman style lounge back.
(42m 7s) Tim Chaten:
exactly, yeah.
(42m 9s)
I remember the “Hollow Man” movie,
(42m 12s)
when you look up at the ceiling,
(42m 13s)
it’s like, you should be working right now,
(42m 14s)
and now you could be working when you’re looking at the ceiling.
(42m 16s) Bart Busschots:
Precisely. And it’s kind of the opposite of the universe we all thought we wanted, which is a minority report, which ergonomically would be a disaster.
(42m 18s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(42m 19s)
Your hands are up all the time and yeah, yes.
(42m 25s) Bart Busschots:
Like, yeah, I mean, we’d all have biceps like Arnold Schwarzenegger or whatever, but it’s ergonomically terrible idea. But that’s that’s kind of the interface we have with this, you know, sphere of apps. Only the difference is our hands can just be lying anywhere.
(42m 44s)
They don’t have to be in the air.
(42m 46s)
There’s so many possibilities here like this, this pirate, like I say, it is a whole new paradigm.
(42m 51s)
It is just a whole new way of doing things.
Does visionOS replace anything?
(42m 52s) Tim Chaten:
And it’s interesting because so the Mac and you know the iPhone came out and they both exist and coexist and one doesn’t really replace the other really as you said and This feels like it has more of a potential especially with later form factors of pure AR mode glasses or something to to replace Some of the you know computers in your life
(43m 18s) Bart Busschots:
I still don’t see I don’t see the word me and I don’t know, I’m still not sure replaces where it’s going to go,
(43m 24s)
because if I’m sitting in a meeting or something, I would much prefer to have a subtle laptop.
(43m 31s)
And just be fully in the meeting without any sort of a headset on,
(43m 35s)
I still want to be able to sometimes it’s like, why do I like a desktop sometimes or a laptop sometimes?
(43m 41s)
It’s because there are times I like to think of it as at my desktop,
(43m 44s)
settle into work. I go to a place…
(43m 46s) Tim Chaten:
Yes. Yes. It is, yeah. Yeah, I think the Apple Watch and the iPhone are the safest. I think the iPad and the Mac are the ones that are more striking target of what this could eventually remove the need of.
(43m 48s) Bart Busschots:
and I settle in. And if anything goes away, the desktop is the most likely to go away.
(43m 53s)
But I don’t think that’ll… yeah.
(44m 12s)
I know I would say the iPad is in the middle ground is still pretty safe.
(44m 16s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, yeah, right, yeah.
(44m 16s) Bart Busschots:
I think the desktop and laptop are the ones that to me are the most troubled,
(44m 20s)
because while I say the laptop is nice to have in a meeting,
(44m 23s)
the iPad is actually better to have in a meeting.
(44m 26s)
Because it’s basically your computing world in a slab.
(44m 29s)
And so this this movable thing that’s light and easy to move around is your little piece of digital space that you’re bringing with you in real space, whereas my MacStudio I settle into.
(44m 36s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(44m 36s)
Yes.
(44m 40s) Bart Busschots:
I sit down at a desk to work.
(44m 41s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(44m 42s) Bart Busschots:
I don’t see any reason why I couldn’t sit down and put a headset on and work here because that’s kind of what it’s for.
(44m 43s) Tim Chaten:
Right.
(44m 48s) Bart Busschots:
And a laptop is kind of a portable desktop, right?
(44m 49s) Tim Chaten:
Right.
(44m 51s) Bart Busschots:
That’s how we use laptops.
(44m 52s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(44m 53s) Bart Busschots:
But my iPad is used for very different things to my laptop.
(44m 53s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(44m 57s) Bart Busschots:
And I would replace it instantly if it broke or whatever.
(44m 58s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(44m 58s)
And it’s,
(44m 59s)
yeah.
(45m 2s)
And the max, the thing that may,
(45m 6s)
it sticks around because of the unique apps and skills it can do that won’t be supported in Vision OS, I think, for a while.
(45m 16s)
That’s gonna worry the longevity of the Mac.
(45m 19s)
It’s only a restraint that Apple is putting on Vision OS so it doesn’t do things it doesn’t want to, in a way.
(45m 28s) Bart Busschots:
Well, I guess the Mac has the Mac has a couple of different roles it does.
(45m 31s)
So the one thing it’s doing for us at the moment is big screen.
(45m 34s)
Right. Laptops can never do big screen.
(45m 36s)
iPads can never do big screen.
(45m 37s)
So the Mac’s job is big screen and that job is in danger.
(45m 40s)
But the Mac’s other job is raw oomph.
(45m 44s)
Right. The Mac Studio is an amazing machine because it has horsepower and the Mac Pro is an astonishing machine because it has horsepower and the a workhorse.
(45m 44s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, the horsepower, yeah, yes, yes, yeah.
(45m 56s) Bart Busschots:
That’s a thing you’re going to want.
(45m 58s)
For a long, long time.
(46m)
So I think the Mac is safe.
(46m 3s)
The high-end Macs are safe.
(46m 6s)
But the iMac, the Mac Mini, the MacBook,
(46m 12s) Tim Chaten:
Mm-hmm Yeah Yeah, I mean, I know there’s some Mac only apps, but I wonder how long that like audio hijack that’s a very special niche use case and my yeah and Yeah, well the apps get like Final Cut Pro and Xcode will that stuff get advanced enough where it’s on the same level and vision OS it is on Mac will they bring those the feature pair?
(46m 12s) Bart Busschots:
no, probably much, much less so.
(46m 40s)
I think they will, particularly because what you have is an M-series processor.
(46m 45s)
So it’s actually very clever that they have broken the processor into two in the Vision OS. So you have one processor whose job it is to be a computer and you have an entirely separate processor whose job it is to do the magic of Vision Pro.
(46m 50s) Tim Chaten:
Mm-hmm.
(46m 51s)
Yes.
(47m) Bart Busschots:
And that means that that M2 processor is a Mac.
(47m 5s)
It just it is a Mac.
(47m 8s)
It just has a slightly different skin on it at the moment.
(47m 10s)
There is no earthly reason that it can’t develop all the same APIs,
(47m 15s)
that it can’t have all the same functionality that your Mac can have now,
(47m 18s)
especially because they have been reengineering Mac OS to layer on the security layers we have come to expect from iOS.
(47m 26s)
Those two OSs have come very, very close together architecturally.
(47m 30s)
It’s just that there are more entitlements made available to developers.
(47m 33s)
But philosophically, architecturally,
(47m 36s)
There is no technical reason the iPod couldn’t offer.
(47m 40s)
An app entitlement to do everything I do hijackers.
(47m 43s)
There’s no technological reason.
(47m 45s) Tim Chaten:
Right. To do it.
(47m 45s) Bart Busschots:
It’s just Apple don’t see the point in putting engineering into making that an API with an entitlement.
(47m 51s)
But it’s not technically impossible.
(47m 52s) Tim Chaten:
And if Apple sees, yeah, if Apple sees Vision OS as a desktop environment,
(47m 57s)
maybe they do see, “Hey, let’s give this thing as much developer power as we can so that can be a reality.”
(48m 3s) Bart Busschots:
Right, yeah, and like in the early days of the Mac,
(48m 7s)
the reason apps could do more on the Mac was because they were literally unconstrained.
(48m 11s)
So you as a developer could write code that ran in the kernel with full operating system level privileges.
(48m 17s)
So the code was a peer of Apple’s code,
(48m 19s) Tim Chaten:
Yes, yeah.
(48m 19s) Bart Busschots:
which is stupendously dangerous from a stability and security point of view.
(48m 24s)
And developers railed against the idea of taking that away.
(48m 27s)
But very, very, very slowly, piece by piece,
(48m 30s)
Apple have pulled it back and pulled it back
(48m 33s)
to the point where as now with the M-series processors and the latest versions of Mac OS,
(48m 38s)
developers can’t just shove any code.
(48m 40s)
Like, you can only do a kernel extension through very limited APIs.
(48m 44s)
You can, like, there are entire folders that don’t exist anymore.
(48m 48s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, Audio Hijack, you need a user that’s very incentivized to use that app because you have to do some very…
(48m 55s)
How do you install that app on Audio Hijack?
(48m 57s)
You have to write…
(48m 58s) Bart Busschots:
Oh, no, these days it’s fine because there are more entitlements, right?
(48m 59s) Tim Chaten:
Oh! Okay.
(49m) Bart Busschots:
So Apple have continued to make the entitlement.
(49m 1s) Tim Chaten:
They have. Okay.
(49m 3s) Bart Busschots:
So I didn’t have to jump through any hoops to get Audio Hijack.
(49m 6s)
And like this Mac Studio is new.
(49m 8s)
And I just installed Audio Hijack and it went, oh, this app needs permission to do X, Y and Z.
(49m 12s)
And I was like, yeah, sure, you can have those permissions,
(49m 14s)
because Apple have been working to basically replace replace superpower by sort of superpower by default with no rights by default, but a massive menu
(49m 14s) Tim Chaten:
Oh, nice. Okay.
(49m 28s) Bart Busschots:
of entitlements.
(49m 29s)
And as they’ve expanded the menu of entitlements,
(49m 31s)
they’ve been pulling back what the developers can do the old fashioned way, which is through raw power.
(49m 36s)
And so now with the overlay operating system,
(49m 39s)
the entire system folder is unwritable by root.
(49m 43s)
Like the root user can’t write to the system folder because that’s actually two file systems overlaid on top of each other.
(49m 50s)
And the operating system is literally read only,
(49m 53s)
which from a malware security point of view is amazing.
(49m 56s)
and from a not messing.
(49m 58s)
your Mac by installing this app point of view is also amazing.
(50m 1s)
But developers have had to get used to the fact that the entire forward slash system folder is effectively gone.
(50m 7s)
Even with root power, they can’t write to it.
(50m 10s)
But Apple have have been replacing it with APIs that allow them to do what they need to do in a controlled way.
(50m 16s)
So we are so far along on that in the last decade.
(50m 19s)
And that’s been a decade in the making.
(50m 21s)
But that’s why I am very confident that Vision OS apps will have all the same power as Mac apps, because the Mac has been
(50m 28s)
reengineered, that its power is no longer from the old fashioned I can do anything I’m root and is all based on entitlements now.
(50m 33s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, yeah, so the long-term future is, yeah, those entitlements, and hopefully those come to iPad at some point, too, um, yeah, yes, yes.
(50m 34s) Bart Busschots:
So you can just bring that model with you.
(50m 43s)
Right but there’s no technological reason they couldn’t be brought there today because the model has been brought in sync.
(50m 51s)
And again like with iCloud they brought the model in sync slowly slowly slowly there was no big bang it was just little by little by little.
(50m 59s)
And apple have said many times at WWDC that they’re laying foundations.
(51m 4s)
Well now we have seen why. Why were these foundations this shape? Why were they doing these things? Well now we know why.
(51m 14s)
It’s for this independence of not just independence of resolution which is what we we’re pretty sure it’s about different size of iPhones.
(51m 21s)
Or maybe different size of iPads right? Resolution independence.
(51m 22s) Tim Chaten:
[laughs]
(51m 23s)
Yeah, split screen now.
(51m 25s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah but no it’s actually about paradigm independence.
(51m 30s)
You write an app that can be used on a touch with a mouse with a keyboard in vision OS so the APIs and stuff are now to the point where it’s all genericized out to you have paradigm independence as well as resolution independence.
(51m 43s)
I guess as a computer scientist what apple have done under the hood that your average user doesn’t know why this is great but the effect is great it’s so impressive the computer science that apple are doing is so impressive this is really well engineered stuff and they re-engineered the building while we were all in it.
(51m 59s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(52m)
Yeah.
(52m 1s)
Yeah.
(52m 2s)
Yeah.
(52m 3s)
Yeah.
(52m 4s)
Yeah.
(52m 4s) Bart Busschots:
They have rebuilt the entire building around us while we’ve been in it at no point in time have they done a massive disconnect with it said yet.
(52m 5s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(52m 13s) Bart Busschots:
This is like not since Mac OS like since we switched from classic OS to the modern Mac OS 10 which is now gone to 11.
(52m 19s) Tim Chaten:
Yes, 2001.
(52m 21s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah 22 years we have been in what we think is the same building it’s unrecognizable architecturally computer science wise it is unrecognizable to what it was a 10.0.
(52m 36s)
I’m at no point did we feel we’ve had to leave for a couple years will they rebuild everything we just been in the house living away happy.
(52m 43s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah?
(52m 43s) Bart Busschots:
But they completely redesigned that we’ve gone from having like cold power and central heating to having a heat pump and we haven’t noticed.
(52m 44s) Tim Chaten:
Yes.
(52m 50s)
Yeah.
(52m 51s) Bart Busschots:
I’m a computer scientist by training and this stuff just can I like good engineering and craig federici is one of my heroes because that that mans vision is very important but we know johnny I was important.
(52m 51s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(53m 5s) Bart Busschots:
What from a computer science point of view craig federici is as important to why apple is apple and I don’t think it gets nearly the credit.
(53m 11s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. Yeah. So earlier, we’ve just kind of mentioned and hinted at the hand gestures as part of this. I’m curious, for very detailed and precise work like video editing, podcast editing, will that translate to pure hand tracking? And can developers do custom gestures?
Gestures
(53m 36s) Tim Chaten:
are cost adjusters enabled? Like, I don’t know, put a hand up like that.
(53m 41s)
to like stop or something and slice. Or for this kind of, you know. Okay.
(53m 45s) Bart Busschots:
I don’t think they’re in the current APIs.
(53m 50s)
But again, if you think back to the first versions of iOS,
(53m 52s)
the APIs available to developers were also less,
(53m 55s)
and then Apple added more,
(53m 57s)
with triple touch and all these kind of things.
(53m 59s)
So I don’t think there’s any reason that you won’t get the APIs improving over time.
(54m 3s)
And it’s something I think…
(54m 5s)
I don’t have any little birdies.
(54m 8s) Tim Chaten:
Right.
(54m 8s) Bart Busschots:
I’m just thinking, “What would be the logical thing to do?”
(54m 10s)
And I think you’re going to start having APIs for things like Map a pencil.
(54m 15s)
Into the operating system so that you can have a physical thing that is purely a dummy, right?
(54m 21s)
It’s it’s for the point of view of ergonomics. It has no brain. It’s completely stupid. It’s just comfortable Correct right so something you like in your hand and Then that the operating system can handle the fact that you’re moving around because I want I want to use a stylus for the ergonomics of it And I don’t want it to have any brain
(54m 24s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, I’d love, yeah, an apple, a dead apple pencil.
(54m 27s)
Let me use a dead apple pencil.
(54m 39s)
Yeah, yeah, imagine right imagine that he in writing with the stylus and You’re just writing on the table, and you’re able to see the results out in front of you
(54m 51s) Bart Busschots:
And actually, I’m going to correct myself.
(54m 53s)
I do want it to have a brain.
(54m 55s)
I don’t want to be tracking where it is in space because the vision OS can do that.
(54m 58s) Tim Chaten:
Pressure for art, yeah.
(54m 58s) Bart Busschots:
I want it to be tracking. Yeah, exactly.
(55m)
I want to be tracking the pressure very precisely.
(55m 2s)
Yeah, so actually we do. Yeah.
(55m 5s)
In fact, the current Apple pencil has that actually is the pressure sensitive in the screen or in the pencils nib.
(55m 11s)
The moment is probably in the screen.
(55m 12s) Tim Chaten:
Well, no, the crayon does not support pressure sensitivity, the pencil does, which leads me to believe it’s in the pencil.
(55m 14s) Bart Busschots:
I think I think it’s in between the layers of the screen at the moment.
(55m 17s)
But.
(55m 21s)
Or both.
(55m 22s)
Yes.
(55m 26s)
It must be in the pencil.
(55m 30s)
Doug, no, that’s good.
(55m 31s)
Yeah, I like your thinking there.
(55m 32s)
The other thing that just immediately springs to my mind is you could imagine a purely mechanical device where you have a rollerball that doesn’t have any ink, right?
(55m 40s)
Imagine like a rollerball with no ink so that it’s not scratching your surfaces.
(55m 41s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(55m 42s)
Yes.
(55m 43s)
Yes.
(55m 44s) Bart Busschots:
Right. But if that rollerball is on a spring,
(55m 47s)
well, then you have the perfect pressure sensitive device
(55m 50s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. Right.
(55m 51s) Bart Busschots:
that you can use on any surface, right?
(55m 53s)
Because there’s no reason that ball has to be tiny because it’s precision.
(55m 56s)
Again, it doesn’t care about the location.
(55m 57s)
All it’s tracking.
(55m 58s)
It has to be ergonomically comfortable so that you, the human can make small movements.
(55m 59s) Tim Chaten:
Mm-hmm, yes, yeah
(56m 2s) Bart Busschots:
But it’s you know, it doesn’t have to be tiny little tip because it’s going to be projected into virtual space.
(56m 9s)
So, again, the possibilities for clever input devices.
(56m 13s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah Mm-hmm yeah It’ll be interesting because like apps like ferrites, I’d imagine they’d have to ship with some limited hand tracking Way to use this app at all, but for those that actually want to Use this as a power user and actually do intensive edits get a keyboard and trackpad like you do on an iPad
(56m 13s) Bart Busschots:
Very high here.
(56m 15s)
Yeah. So the more specialized work, you’re going to want an interface that is
(56m 21s)
So, yeah, I think there’s a lot of…
(56m 42s)
I could imagine them having a custom virtual interface that you would anchor to a surface.
(56m 49s) Tim Chaten:
Oh, yeah, yeah, and you can even put custom buttons you get like they have the custom keyboard shortcuts You have a custom button. I have cut Select all the following after the cut. I have the button for move to you know the playhead And you could have a custom layout for all your commands that you like that
(57m 8s) Bart Busschots:
Right, there’s absolutely no reason developers can’t develop their own custom UIs because they can have as many windows as they want.
(57m 17s)
So they can anchor a control surface to a flat surface and then make that control surface be whatever makes sense for their app and then have the visual stuff in front of you so you can see all the waveforms in front of you but you have a very intuitive control which may have giant big sliders that are just impossible to miss that you can move very precisely with your finger.
(57m 24s) Tim Chaten:
Yes.
(57m 25s)
Yes.
(57m 26s)
Yes.
(57m 26s)
Yes.
(57m 37s)
And they already do some custom stuff with like when you’re stripping silencer you have the slider for you know the different duration between silences and what the decibel level is for the thresholds. So for that translating to Vision OS if you do it smartly you could have that as like a custom thing just on the table in front of you.
(57m 59s) Bart Busschots:
I mean, you mentioned it earlier, but the touch bar on steroids is what you could do virtually with Vision OS.
(58m 4s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, and you’d want a single window that transforms, so like when you’re doing strip silence it’s the strip silence, when you’re editing it’s all your edit buttons.
(58m 14s) Bart Busschots:
Right.
(58m 15s)
Control surface, yeah.
(58m 15s) Tim Chaten:
So it’s one big giant huge touch bar, control surface, that transforms based on the tasks you’re doing.
(58m 20s) Bart Busschots:
You could also think of it like two iPads, basically, right?
(58m 24s) Tim Chaten:
And that’s possible, yeah.
(58m 27s) Bart Busschots:
So with an app like Fairlight, at the moment,
(58m 30s)
half the screen is showing you stuff and half the screen is touch input.
(58m 33s)
But there’s no reason you couldn’t disconnect those two and have one in front of you and one below you and have the same smarts.
(58m 40s)
In fact, as a developer thinking Swift UI-wise,
(58m 44s)
it doesn’t be the same thing, but just when you’re in Vision OS,
(58m 46s)
they’re separated and you use touchy controls down here.
(58m 50s)
And when you’re on the iPad, they have to click them together because the iPad can’t do that magic trick.
(58m 54s)
But in terms of how they design and think of the portability as a user,
(58m 58s)
I know how to use this app, I’m completely familiar with it.
(59m)
And now I move into a completely different paradigm,
(59m 2s)
but my familiarity has followed me.
(59m 4s) Tim Chaten:
Yes. Yeah, I’m reminded of this vision I’ve had for many years of a mythical Apple product where it’s a laptop, but both things are screens and the bottom screen transforms into keyboard and other things. And Apple’s never created that, but I’ve always envisioned when are
(59m 22s) Bart Busschots:
The only time I’m even vaguely excited about foldables is not phones.
(59m 26s)
It’s it’s a tablet like device where you could have a horizontal control surface.
(59m 30s) Tim Chaten:
Right, yeah. But yeah, I think in the beginning keyboard and trackpad will be essential because I think it may take some time for developers to fully grasp this stuff and embrace it.
Input
(59m 37s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah.
(59m 38s)
It’s on two sides, right?
(59m 40s) Tim Chaten:
it.
(59m 41s)
It would be, yeah.
(59m 42s)
Mm-hmm.
(59m 42s)
Mm-hmm.
(59m 43s) Bart Busschots:
Because Apple’s developers have to make the APIs available in such a way that the developers have the power to do the kind of things we’re just spitballing here.
(59m 50s)
Because again, like you’re saying, there’s going to have to be…
(59m 53s)
So maybe you could have that the gaze tracking is allowed on the control surface, right?
(59m 57s)
So you could imagine a permission developed by Apple where an app can say,
(1h 1s)
“This app would like to track your eyes, but only on its own windows.”
(1h 5s)
So they don’t have the scary right.
(1h 7s)
It’s to follow your eyes everywhere and and hence do all sorts of horrible spying on you.
(1h 12s)
But you could have a more like we currently have with the photos app where you can give an app really quite fine grained access to your photos app.
(1h 17s)
You could imagine fine grained eye tracking control.
(1h 20s) Tim Chaten:
Yes. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And in PSVR2, they have blink data as well for games. So,
(1h 20s) Bart Busschots:
Yes, this app can track my eyes on its control surface, but it can’t track my eyes anywhere else.
(1h 26s)
You know, and again, but if we imagine having a physical device being mapped into the virtual world that had to be APIs for that, because again, right now, that’s not supported by the current version of the OS.
(1h 37s)
So it’s, yeah.
(1h 43s) Tim Chaten:
one of the best examples of this is Before Your Eyes. This is a game entirely controlled through eye tracking. It
(1h 50s)
acts as if you’re looking at it, but primarily you move through the game based on when you blink. And when you blink, the scene moves along and you may miss stuff because you can’t keep your eyes open long enough to see the full scene. And that’s part of the thing.
(1h 1m 2s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah Okay
(1h 1m 3s) Tim Chaten:
And the game is trying to make you cry at times. So it’s very emotional. So that game could not exist in visual now. But imagine blinking as a way to you look at something you blink as a way to signal. Yes, I believe there’s assessably stuff now where you can
(1h 1m 20s)
stare at stuff for a long time and it’ll eventually trigger.
(1h 1m 24s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah dwell they call it dwell so basically you could do dwell based interaction and I think it’s like two seconds or something I mean yeah I mean it
(1h 1m 30s) Tim Chaten:
Okay, so not terribly long, but be nice blinking blinking would be a nice kind of interface because also like I believe in your behind screens Like this your blink rate is not as quick. So a blink interface would actually Encourage blinking which may actually be good to get you know water on your
(1h 1m 48s) Bart Busschots:
Which is healthy, actually, that’s a good point.
(1h 1m 51s)
Yeah, maybe the more natural the displays are, the more likely we are to blink because our brain hasn’t thought, oh, this is weird.
(1h 1m 54s) Tim Chaten:
I hope so.
(1h 1m 55s)
Yeah, that is possible.
Eye Health
(1h 2m) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, I’m curious.
(1h 2m)
Yeah, the iHealth stuff I’m super curious about ’cause, you know, right before this,
(1h 2m 6s)
they showed, you know, the awesome iPad and iPhone feature of moving the iPad away, which I’ve been using this summer.
(1h 2m 11s)
It’s been really helpful for me,
(1h 2m 12s)
reminding myself when I have an iPad up.
(1h 2m 14s)
Yeah, so I’m curious, with this focal distance,
(1h 2m 20s)
with the screen tech, is it?
(1h 2m 24s)
Is it healthier for your eyes than using an iPhone all day long?
(1h 2m 28s)
I would hope so, but maybe not.
(1h 2m 30s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, and maybe that’s something that will evolve over time as well.
(1h 2m 33s)
And it may it may tweak what Apple does for version two, version three, etc.
(1h 2m 38s) Tim Chaten:
Right. Yeah. And then, so primarily we’ve seen so far from, you know, developers, their iPad apps being brought over to the Vision OS as, you know, simple, you know, updates and some are doing more with it. One thing I’m curious about, 3D elements. This is something new for pretty much most developers. If you can have this 3D object that’s a part of your app, how do you think that’ll manifest.
3D Elements
(1h 3m 8s) Tim Chaten:
short and long-term.
(1h 3m 10s) Bart Busschots:
Okay, so initially there’s going to be a whole bunch of gimmicks is what’s going to happen as developers, you know, I mean, we all remember that iOS started off with fart apps and flashlights, right? That was where iOS started and then it became imaginative and useful. So I’m sure there will be a whole bunch of silly gimmicks.
(1h 3m 15s) Tim Chaten:
Yes. Yeah.
(1h 3m 18s)
Yeah. Yeah.
(1h 3m 25s)
I mean, the very basic thing, I was talking about the photo frame thing that I heard from Devin of Crouton speak about.
(1h 3m 32s)
You could have desk ornaments of different, you know, little statues on your desk.
(1h 3m 36s)
desk is just a very simple.
(1h 3m 39s) Bart Busschots:
Well, so as a developer, the APIs are basically, you can have a flat surface to build on,
(1h 3m 43s)
or you can have a three-dimensional volume to build in.
(1h 3m 46s)
So if you’re…
(1h 3m 47s) Tim Chaten:
And then I thought you could have 3D objects within a…
(1h 3m 48s) Bart Busschots:
Well, they’re basically within a virtual…
(1h 3m 50s) Tim Chaten:
Can you have 3D objects within a flat?
(1h 3m 53s)
Or does that have to be in the volume for 3D?
(1h 3m 53s) Bart Busschots:
Well, they’re…
(1h 3m 55s)
Well, no, so what you actually have is not a window, what you then have is a virtual cube.
(1h 3m 56s) Tim Chaten:
Yes, yes.
(1h 3m 59s) Bart Busschots:
That’s the model that the operating system puts on it.
(1h 4m) Tim Chaten:
Mm-hmm.
(1h 4m 4s) Bart Busschots:
And so if you’re doing a three-dimensional CAD app or something,
(1h 4m 9s)
you’re immediately going to go, “I don’t want a flat window for my app, my app is a volume.”
(1h 4m 13s)
And then you’re going to place your thing you’re building into your volume,
(1h 4m 17s)
and then you’re going to have to have a think about, “Well, what do I do with tool palettes?”
(1h 4m 20s)
And so if they don’t have to live in a three-dimensional space,
(1h 4m 22s) Tim Chaten:
[Chuckle]
(1h 4m 22s) Bart Busschots:
I’m going to have to think about how to work that.
(1h 4m 24s)
So there’s already a lot of thinking about Vision OS’s new paradigm for flat apps.
(1h 4m 30s)
But for 3D apps, it’s so new that I know developers will do cool things,
(1h 4m 37s)
but I’m having great trouble.
(1h 4m 39s)
Imagining what they will be because we just don’t know where that’s going yet.
(1h 4m 43s) Tim Chaten:
And the volume apps, it is more VR mode, like you can only run one at a time.
(1h 4m 49s)
Is that or no?
(1h 4m 50s) Bart Busschots:
No, so there are three building blocks of the Vision OS.
(1h 4m 57s)
In terms of the developer, there’s three basic APIs.
(1h 5m)
So give me a flat surface, give me a volume, or give me an immersive experience.
(1h 5m 5s)
And the immersive experience is full screen.
(1h 5m 7s)
So the Mount Hood type experience is an immersive experience.
(1h 5m 11s)
And so developers can make those too.
(1h 5m 13s)
So if you want to make some sort of a 3D world, like a game,
(1h 5m 17s)
To me, games are going to be built with that third paradigm.
(1h 5m 20s)
You’re not going to have your game sitting in a window unless it’s, I mean, okay, you do have sort of the fun type, iPhone type games.
(1h 5m 25s) Tim Chaten:
Right. Yeah.
(1h 5m 26s) Bart Busschots:
You might have a game of solitaire sitting over in the corner or whatever.
(1h 5m 30s)
But in terms of your immersive gaming, that is going to be this third type of, think of it like a full screen app in 3D.
(1h 5m 38s)
So it’s basically, you have pieces of paper, you have boxes and you have full screen, full
(1h 5m 42s) Tim Chaten:
Right, what we know as and that full screen like today, I think that just as VR gaming,
(1h 5m 50s)
but it could be full screen that’s AR as well, or no, probably, probably not.
(1h 5m 54s) Bart Busschots:
It could be, but I’m not clear on that.
(1h 5m 59s)
So Apple did already say though that stuff like if you want to have a virtual environment where people could live in,
(1h 6m 4s)
developers could make a fully immersive world that you could then bring your Windows into.
(1h 6m 6s) Tim Chaten:
‘Cause, yeah.
(1h 6m 8s)
‘Cause imagine, the augmented reality,
(1h 6m 12s)
imagine like a basketball, a virtual basketball hoop that you can place in your living space and you’re shooting, hand tracking tracks,
(1h 6m 20s) Bart Busschots:
You could do that what what immediately struck me again thinking to the early days of ios one of the funnest apps initially was quite pond.
(1h 6m 20s) Tim Chaten:
the ball, leave your hands,
(1h 6m 23s)
and you’re kind of playing basketball in your house.
(1h 6m 33s) Bart Busschots:
It was just a virtual fish pond and you could put your finger in and interact with it but you could as a developer but you could using.
(1h 6m 33s) Tim Chaten:
Yes.
(1h 6m 35s)
Yes, and you could do that. You could do a coinfod if you wanted to.
(1h 6m 42s) Bart Busschots:
You could absolutely do it so we can have a three dimensional space is a full japanese garden with your fish and stuff that will be a fully immersive experience you can then bring.
(1h 6m 50s)
Bring your windows into so you’re sitting in an airport lounge is all horrible and you would say give me that full screen coy experience and then put up my powerpoint and my excel and let me work away and then every now and then I go play with the fish.
(1h 6m 55s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, right, yes, yeah, okay, yeah.
(1h 7m 1s) Bart Busschots:
Right so that is that is covered by the current api’s so you as a developer can so they gave us an example the mount hood so you want to work on mount hood and just not see the world than apple wrote the mount hood one but those api’s are there for developers to write other worlds.
(1h 7m 17s) Tim Chaten:
And you, and you can run, you can run flat apps inside that app.
(1h 7m 17s) Bart Busschots:
where they can animate whatever they want.
(1h 7m 20s)
Yes.
(1h 7m 21s) Tim Chaten:
You can just, you can run one fully immersive app, um, amongst then whatever windows you want within that.
(1h 7m 22s) Bart Busschots:
Yes.
(1h 7m 24s)
Precisely.
(1h 7m 26s)
Precisely.
(1h 7m 27s) Tim Chaten:
Okay.
(1h 7m 29s)
Okay.
(1h 7m 29s)
Interesting.
(1h 7m 30s)
Yeah.
(1h 7m 30s)
Cause I heard the environments were kind of an exclusive to Apple, but that’s,
(1h 7m 33s)
that’d be good if they weren’t, um, yeah.
(1h 7m 36s) Bart Busschots:
No, well, based on what I watched on the developer demos,
(1h 7m 38s)
they’re not exclusive to Apple, no,
(1h 7m 40s)
because Apple described the APIs and stuff for them and sort of had this great vision that developers would do cool things.
(1h 7m 47s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. Awesome. How do you personally see yourself using vision?
How do you think you’ll use Vision Pro?
(1h 7m 55s) Bart Busschots:
I see it as being my my my desktop laptop replacement.
(1h 7m 59s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(1h 7m 59s) Bart Busschots:
Basically, I will go go to a place, be it my desk, be it my office,
(1h 8m) Tim Chaten:
Mhm.
(1h 8m 4s)
Yeah.
(1h 8m 4s) Bart Busschots:
be it somewhere else, I will go to a place I will settle in and I will work.
(1h 8m 7s)
I’m not a gamer.
(1h 8m 8s) Tim Chaten:
Now.
(1h 8m 9s) Bart Busschots:
I also don’t see myself walking around the kitchen with these things.
(1h 8m 12s)
I really do see it for me as the desktop paradigm.
(1h 8m 15s)
And that’s why it excited me like no other headset ever has.
(1h 8m 18s)
I want to sit and work in an environment that is infinitely big
(1h 8m 25s)
and comfortable.
(1h 8m 26s)
So that that that is what I want, I want the ultimate desktop.
(1h 8m 30s)
I call it my infinity screen laptop.
(1h 8m 32s) Tim Chaten:
Yes, and will you wait until it comes to your region or will you be a crazy person and fly over here and try to procure one?
(1h 8m 43s) Bart Busschots:
Hmm, undecided, I, at the moment, as far as my darling beloved is concerned, I am not prepared to spend silly money on this.
(1h 8m 43s) Tim Chaten:
Okay, okay.
(1h 8m 52s)
Because that would like double the cost flying here, you know, that’s expensive and trying.
(1h 8m 52s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, I mean, I lost.
(1h 8m 54s)
I wouldn’t I wouldn’t quite do it that way, I would I have plenty of friends.
(1h 8m 56s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah. Oh, you’d have a friend. You’d have a friend. Yes. Yes. I see. Yes.
(1h 9m 1s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, that’s I mean, that’s how I got my first Apple watch.
(1h 9m 4s)
I had a friend in the UK because I came to the UK first.
(1h 9m 7s)
So I had a friend in the UK buy me one and send it to me.
(1h 9m 10s)
And I know quite a few podcasters in America.
(1h 9m 13s)
I am sure Alison or someone would be quite happy to, you know, PayPal over the money and then send me the thing.
(1h 9m 16s) Tim Chaten:
Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. Yeah. It’ll be interesting trying to get people’s your hands on one just even in America, I feel this will be instant sellouts and yes. Yeah, like, I’m I’m anticipating if I’m not there at whatever…
(1h 9m 19s) Bart Busschots:
As far as My Darling Beloved is concerned, that’s not going to happen. I won’t promise it won’t.
(1h 9m 36s)
It’s going to be hard, yeah, and as I understand it, they’re not going to be easy to manufacture,
(1h 9m 41s)
so these things are going to be in short supply.
(1h 9m 46s) Tim Chaten:
9 a.m. on the Apple Store app when it opens it’ll be a long time and even if I’m there I’ll probably be several weeks delay or months so yes yes
(1h 9m 53s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, like your first iPhone, people will probably be in line and stuff.
(1h 10m)
I think the demand is going to be bigger than the supply, not because Apple are artificially doing it, but because it’s really hard to make something like this.
(1h 10m 8s) Tim Chaten:
And I even know of waiting and you have to go to like a one of the big Apple stores way in line. If you wait in line at just a random Apple store,
(1h 10m 15s) Bart Busschots:
[snickers]
(1h 10m 15s) Tim Chaten:
I’m not even sure we have one. It’s like, cause of the supply. Yeah.
(1h 10m 17s) Bart Busschots:
Well I think, isn’t the rumour that you’re gonna have to be fitted?
(1h 10m 19s) Tim Chaten:
So Apple store app or go to New York city. Yeah.
(1h 10m 22s)
Through a wall either in person or they have the,
(1h 10m 30s)
the iPhone app thing that’ll do it for you.
(1h 10m 33s)
There as well as what I’ve heard.
(1h 10m 36s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, so there’s been mixed rumors and that’s one way it might go is that you end up queuing up online to get effectively a virtual ticket to then go to an app store, to an Apple store where they will actually find you the appropriate light shield and find you the appropriate inserts and stuff, because you may not walk out, you may end up going in, getting measured up and you may not walk out with the device that day, it may be, especially if you need custom stuff from Zeiss, it may be a case that you come in, you get measured up and they get everything ready for you and they say, and yes, you know, three working from now UPS will go ding dong and here’s your headset.
(1h 10m 44s) Tim Chaten:
Right.
(1h 10m 45s)
That would be interesting.
(1h 10m 49s)
Yeah.
(1h 10m 50s)
Right.
(1h 10m 51s)
And they ship it to you.
(1h 11m 8s)
Right. Yes. Yeah. Potentially. Yeah. One theory I’ve had is this battery pack that has USB-C port.
IO
(1h 11m 18s) Tim Chaten:
Is there any… Your developer knowledge. Would Apple hide the fact that that USB-C port is passed through with data as well so we could hook up hard drives and other things to our headset?
(1h 11m 34s) Bart Busschots:
I mean, that is a purely a question of what they’re like.
(1h 11m 38s)
It’s kind of a maturity of the US question more than anything else.
(1h 11m 41s)
Right.
(1h 11m 41s)
So if you think about it on the iPad,
(1h 11m 43s)
the files app took a long time to catch up with what the hardware could actually do.
(1h 11m 47s) Tim Chaten:
Right. We do have a files app. We have a files app on day one. It is all on the betas.
(1h 11m 48s) Bart Busschots:
So the fact that the physical.
(1h 11m 51s)
We do, we do.
(1h 11m 53s) Tim Chaten:
[laughs]
(1h 11m 54s) Bart Busschots:
So at a technical point, there’s no reason you couldn’t do anything through that USB port, but it’s up to the operating system to decide what it presents
(1h 12m 4s)
to make sense, I think that’s how far ahead Apple engineers are,
(1h 12m 6s)
because there’s so many things they have to get ready in this OS.
(1h 12m 9s)
Where is that on their priority list?
(1h 12m 11s) Tim Chaten:
Right. Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. And if you’re working at a desk, like plug that into the Thunderbolt hub, have all your stuff. I don’t know. That’s probably not Thunderbolt,
(1h 12m 12s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, but technically, there’s no reason they couldn’t.
(1h 12m 23s) Tim Chaten:
but it could be. Um, and cause I imagine that battery pack. Yeah. I imagine that battery pack has a lot more smarts in it than we think. And that’s why I think instead of buying a second battery pack, I’ll be buying a bigger, dumb battery pack. They plug that battery pack into for longer sessions.
(1h 12m 40s) Bart Busschots:
I mean, there’s a lot of possibilities, I think, because I do kind of like the idea of just being tethered, you know, you just have like a power supply that’s on your desk or something and just hook in and just not even worry about a battery.
(1h 12m 48s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah.
(1h 12m 49s)
Yeah, yeah, ’cause I think that, yeah,
(1h 12m 51s) Bart Busschots:
But I’m sure that’s something they’ll figure out over time.
(1h 12m 57s) Tim Chaten:
it’s doing probably a lot of things in that battery pack that we’re not quite aware of.
(1h 13m 1s)
It’s interesting they did not offload any of the CPU computery stuff to that battery pack,
(1h 13m 7s)
which they could have.
(1h 13m 8s)
Yeah.
(1h 13m 10s) Bart Busschots:
Maybe because I want to get rid of it.
(1h 13m 10s) Tim Chaten:
Maybe.
(1h 13m 12s) Bart Busschots:
And if you engineer it in so that the battery pack starts doing computer work, well then you can’t get rid of the battery pack.
(1h 13m 13s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, I don’t know.
(1h 13m 20s) Bart Busschots:
Because you’ve just given it extra work.
(1h 13m 20s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t know. It’s curious with that stuff Yeah, it’s curious they you need the backpack there’s no option it appears at least To swap that with just a power cable to be plugged in probably from a safety standpoint
(1h 13m 42s) Bart Busschots:
I guess you need to have.
(1h 13m 45s)
There would need to be at least a small amount of battery in the headset for that to be viable, because how else would you change from one to the other and stuff so I did.
(1h 13m 51s) Tim Chaten:
Yes Yeah So, um, we both have I’m sure many hours more thoughts and stuff but we should probably start to wrap it up here
(1h 13m 53s) Bart Busschots:
But there’s no reason in the future we couldn’t move to that kind of a world.
(1h 13m 57s)
We shall see how they shall see how it goes.
Closing Thoughts
(1h 14m 9s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, but I mean, they’re going to develop as well, because every time I have this conversation, new things come into my head because so many possibilities here.
(1h 14m 17s)
And developers are darn imaginative and clever people.
(1h 14m 21s)
So now that they’re at the, you know, they’re now playing around with with the beta version on a simulator and they’re already doing fun stuff.
(1h 14m 29s)
Well, you know, where are they going to go a year from now, two years from now,
(1h 14m 33s)
three years from now? So many possibilities.
(1h 14m 34s) Tim Chaten:
when they actually have the hardware and are Imagining things now that they’ve played with
(1h 14m 39s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, yeah, so this is so exciting, so many possibilities.
(1h 14m 47s) Tim Chaten:
Yeah, when iPhone launched, I was imagining a crazy world where things could happen with that thing and this is just so different and so delightful.
(1h 15m 4s) Bart Busschots:
Well if you think about the iPhone, we knew it would be cool.
(1h 15m 7s) Tim Chaten:
Yes. Yeah. Different cool. Yeah, very much so. Well, thank you, Bar, for your time. It’s been a pleasure chatting with you, and we will have to do it again sometime. Where can folks find you on the interwebs?
(1h 15m 7s) Bart Busschots:
And we kinda thought we knew what it would do, but it turns out it did different things, but it’s still really cool.
(1h 15m 12s)
It’s just different cool. And that’ll happen here too.
Where can people find your work?
(1h 15m 26s) Bart Busschots:
The easiest place is to go to let’s-talk.ie, which is where my podcasts live, and my personal site is bartb.ie, but it’s going to change, but for now, it’s still there, and whatever I do in the future, there’ll be a redirect.
(1h 15m 40s)
But yeah, that’s probably the easiest URL, bartb.ie.
(1h 15m 43s) Tim Chaten:
Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Mark. Really appreciate your time today.
(1h 15m 45s) Bart Busschots:
Yeah, absolute, absolute pleasure talking to you, and I definitely will be back over the history of this show, which I wish you the best of luck with.
(1h 15m 53s) Tim Chaten:
Thank you.
(1h 15m 54s)
Well, that’s my discussion with BART.
(1h 15m 54s) Bart Busschots:
As we go into.
(1h 15m 56s)
It’s a fun journey.
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Vision Pros 